Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

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Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  lynnr on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 8:30 am

Hi All

Those of you lucky ones that have the cylinder block. What is the fit like for the cladding. Not got my block yet Crying or Very sad But should be getting the steering sent with the replacement belly tank brackets. Everything is at a stand still until the block arrives unless I take a risk with the cladding. As you all know. You can not fit the steering without the belly tank, can not fit belly tank without cladding, cladding may need fettling for the block. Bummer

Need my fix. Not done anything for so long a time. Wibble wibble.


Last edited by lynnr on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 1:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : change title)

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  Rickster on Mon 11 Jul 2011, 10:43 am

Hi Lynn,

I can't speak for you Showmans guys and gals, but for the RL, my cleading needs fettling around the cylinder block and it's about 30mm too long. Until the block is fitted I didn't want to take the risk of which piece to take metal from and still get the cleading rings to fit in the right space, if you get my drift.

With the new belly tank brackets I now find the rubbing strips on the cleading totally ineffective as the steering lock is restricted by the front tyres touching the belly tank first and the steering chains rubbing on the inside of the wheel rims. Anyone else experienced this on the RL ? I'd be interested to know.

cheers

Rick

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  sonick45 on Thu 14 Jul 2011, 11:44 am

Rickster wrote:Hi Lynn,

I can't speak for you Showmans guys and gals, but for the RL, my cleading needs fettling around the cylinder block and it's about 30mm too long. Until the block is fitted I didn't want to take the risk of which piece to take metal from and still get the cleading rings to fit in the right space, if you get my drift.

With the new belly tank brackets I now find the rubbing strips on the cleading totally ineffective as the steering lock is restricted by the front tyres touching the belly tank first and the steering chains rubbing on the inside of the wheel rims. Anyone else experienced this on the RL ? I'd be interested to know.

cheers

Rick

just to bring this potential problem back to the top of the threads.
Anyone had the same problem with the front wheels now rubbing on the belly tank?

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  highpressure on Sat 16 Jul 2011, 1:34 pm

I suspect its just us RL guys as there is less clearance between the perch location and the tank due to not having an exciter platform. I thought this would be the case as the wheels have altready touched and removed the lining on my tank before repositioning it. Dont forget they have a showmans as the control so wouldnt pick it up in the factory. It may look OK on paper but in real life it is a different story that 15mm makes a huge differnce to the turning circle.

Having driven an engine on various show grounds over the last few years it will be impossible to stop the wheels hitting the tank as the ground undulates. The one last weekend at Wiston house was a perfect example of how rough a field can be when driving a 4" engine over it. I can see this being a real pain in the years to come.

Struggling to muster up any enthusiasm for this at the moment Sad ... both the steering and the block are still in their boxes and the cleading just got unloaded and put on a shelf. Feel somewhat guilty after all the work that goes into getting these ready for us. Embarassed Neutral

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  sonick45 on Sat 16 Jul 2011, 2:01 pm

highpressure wrote:I suspect its just us RL guys as there is less clearance between the perch location and the tank due to not having an exciter platform. I thought this would be the case as the wheels have altready touched and removed the lining on my tank before repositioning it. Dont forget they have a showmans as the control so wouldnt pick it up in the factory. It may look OK on paper but in real life it is a different story that 15mm makes a huge differnce to the turning circle.

Having driven an engine on various show grounds over the last few years it will be impossible to stop the wheels hitting the tank as the ground undulates. The one last weekend at Wiston house was a perfect example of how rough a field can be when driving a 4" engine over it. I can see this being a real pain in the years to come.

Struggling to muster up any enthusiasm for this at the moment Sad ... both the steering and the block are still in their boxes and the cleading just got unloaded and put on a shelf. Feel somewhat guilty after all the work that goes into getting these ready for us. Embarassed Neutral

Oh Dear...
It looks like us RL builders are going to have to fit extra rubbing strips on the front of the tank.. Crying or Very sad
I take it the turning circle is going to be considerably reduced to.

I wonder if there is any way of setting the tank further back on the RL by changing the brackets and shortening the steering shaft.
Probably to late now. Evil or Very Mad

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O`No

Post  Big Shaun on Sun 17 Jul 2011, 11:09 am

Oh Dear...
It looks like us RL builders are going to have to fit extra rubbing strips on the front of the tank..
I take it the turning circle is going to be considerably reduced to.

I wonder if there is any way of setting the tank further back on the RL by changing the brackets and shortening the steering shaft.
Probably to late now.

I hope that the turning circle is not reduced to much, or i will have to park it on the drive!

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  sonick45 on Sun 17 Jul 2011, 11:30 am

Big Shaun wrote:
Oh Dear...
It looks like us RL builders are going to have to fit extra rubbing strips on the front of the tank..
I take it the turning circle is going to be considerably reduced to.

I wonder if there is any way of setting the tank further back on the RL by changing the brackets and shortening the steering shaft.
Probably to late now.

I hope that the turning circle is not reduced to much, or i will have to park it on the drive!

RL BUILDERS.

This problem needs to get sorted and fast.
I think it can be rectified but it's down to STW in the end. There are two kits that could be modified. Tank and Steering.
If the tank was reduced slightly and the steering brackets moved forward there would possibly be enough space made for the wheels to pass the tank fully. The amount lost in tank capacity would be small and shouldn't effect the look.

STW have used the Showmans as the test model and this has a longer boiler barrel so the problem has gone un-noticed until the kits have been fitted by the customers. In hindsight they should have built one of each.

I doubt STW will want all these RL's out on the field in this state as it will be very bad PR with damaged tanks from wheel rubbing and poor turning circles. After all it is going to be these engines that do most of the road runs to pubs etc. I don't want to be the red faced driver who has to unhitch the trailer and do a 20 point turn.

Don't be too disheartened at this stage. I'm sure there is a fix.

Nick

I have emailed Steve to bring this to his attention.

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  Rickster on Sun 17 Jul 2011, 1:47 pm

Hi RL builders,

I spoke to Steve about this last week when test fitting everything. What I found:

1. before achievig full lock, the steering chains rubbed on the inside front wheel rim before touching the Belly tank.
2. Over rough ground I could see the tyres touching the belly tank before full lock is reached.
3. The rubbing blocks are only really effective in movement up and down of the axle, the other chain restrictors will limit the lock not the rubbing blocks. Having said that, the tyres will definately touch the tank before the blocks on the RL.
4. Not sure yet how much the restricted lock would limit the turning circle, I don't have much experience of these things yet, but I don't personally think it will cause too much of a problem.

I need to speak to Steve re the cladding as the one piece section that attaches to the cylinder block, on my egines is too short by about 5mm on each side and is too wide to butt against either the front piece or the two wayshaft pieces by about 15mm. I also noticed there is no support given by the cleading rings on this piece unless I shorted the two wayshaft pieces by the relevant amount then this piece can be supported here but not the front part of it because the next ring is in front of the cylinder. Picture attached probably shows it better than I've descriped it!

Any ideas Steve ??

cheers Rick





4.

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Belly tank clearance

Post  Steve Traill on Sun 17 Jul 2011, 3:40 pm

A third option in getting more clearance would be to fit a spacer ring between the boiler & the smokebox, this would move the front axle forward. It would be covered with the cleading so wouldn't show, would give increased clearance where needed and apart from the ring, a new bit of cleading and a longer blast pipe not much else is involved. I'm sure Steve & Dean will come up with a working solution to this, anything that is done for the first time creates little problems such as this, all of which can be solved.
Remember:
If it was easy everyone would be doing this! sunny

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  sonick45 on Sun 17 Jul 2011, 4:16 pm

Steve Traill wrote:A third option in getting more clearance would be to fit a spacer ring between the boiler & the smokebox, this would move the front axle forward. It would be covered with the cleading so wouldn't show, would give increased clearance where needed and apart from the ring, a new bit of cleading and a longer blast pipe not much else is involved. I'm sure Steve & Dean will come up with a working solution to this, anything that is done for the first time creates little problems such as this, all of which can be solved.
Remember:
If it was easy everyone would be doing this! sunny

I like this idea.
It would get around the clearance problem but i'm not sure how the smokebox would be fixed to the boiler barrel as the holes would no longer align. Maybe i'm missing something.


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Steering

Post  lynnr on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 12:15 am

Hi

You are also correct this does not affect the showman. I put the steering on last Friday evening to get the engine ready for its first show at Strathspay Railway. I have set the limit chains so that the steering chains are about 5mm from the wheel rim. This actually gives a very good steering lock.

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  Steam Traction World on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 1:32 am

Hi All.

Good heavens, talk about escalating a problem out of all proportion. I really do not believe that there is an issue with the amount of available steering lock on the Road Loco. Yes, we have moved the Belly Tank 15mm towards the Smokebox on both the Road Loco and Showmans Engines but I don’t believe that this has had a significant impact on steering lock.

The Showmans Boiler is 46mm longer than the Road Loco BUT the Road Loco’s Belly Tank is 30mm narrower, so the overall difference between both designs is only 16mm.

The Rubbing Plates on the Boiler Cladding are not there to restrict anything to do with the steering. Kevin ‘hits the nail on its head’ in his post when he talks about the effect of uneven ground. The Steering Lock Chains should be used to limit the amount of lock to prevent the Front Wheels fouling the Belly Tank including making a small allowance for the ‘yaw’ of the Axle on uneven ground. When on full lock the ‘yaw’ will be mostly an up and down movement and will have little impact on the proximity of the Wheel to the Belly Tank. There is however still the possibility that the up and down motion could hit the Boiler Cladding, hence the Rubbing Plates.

Although our Control Model is the Showmans version it is quite easy in this instance to judge the difference between the two designs and assess the implications of the design and any alteration to it.

I hope this alleviates your concerns.

Regards

Steve

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  sonick45 on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:23 am

Steam Traction World wrote:Hi All.

Good heavens, talk about escalating a problem out of all proportion. I really do not believe that there is an issue with the amount of available steering lock on the Road Loco. Yes, we have moved the Belly Tank 15mm towards the Smokebox on both the Road Loco and Showmans Engines but I don’t believe that this has had a significant impact on steering lock.

The Showmans Boiler is 46mm longer than the Road Loco BUT the Road Loco’s Belly Tank is 30mm narrower, so the overall difference between both designs is only 16mm.

The Rubbing Plates on the Boiler Cladding are not there to restrict anything to do with the steering. Kevin ‘hits the nail on its head’ in his post when he talks about the effect of uneven ground. The Steering Lock Chains should be used to limit the amount of lock to prevent the Front Wheels fouling the Belly Tank including making a small allowance for the ‘yaw’ of the Axle on uneven ground. When on full lock the ‘yaw’ will be mostly an up and down movement and will have little impact on the proximity of the Wheel to the Belly Tank. There is however still the possibility that the up and down motion could hit the Boiler Cladding, hence the Rubbing Plates.

Although our Control Model is the Showmans version it is quite easy in this instance to judge the difference between the two designs and assess the implications of the design and any alteration to it.

I hope this alleviates your concerns.

Regards

Steve



I think you have explained this well Steve.

i'm not sure this was escalating out of proportion as there seemed to be a problem without a simple effective answer. Although if your answer is the cure then yes it's quite simple !!

Several of us were discussing it online and i thought the best thing was to go to the horses mouth and ask direct to nip this in the bud. After all it is important to us all that these engines are the best. I don't think anyone was doubting your skills in design it just appeared that the new brackets + moving the tank forward had created another issue elsewhere.

To clarify : This problem has come about because those that have rubbed the tank with the wheels have not utilised the steering lock chains which regulate how far the wheel can turn from one lock to another. The wheels are not meant to turn all the way to the boiler. If the lock chains are not set correctly the wheel rims will rub on the chains. When the lock chains are set correctly the wheels will not fowl the tank and when on very uneven ground may fowl the rubbing plates as intended.

I haven't got the relevant kits yet so can only visualise what others have mentioned above.
They way I had interpreted it was the wheels were fowling the tank on their flat axis long before they touched the boiler.
Giving me the impression that the turning circle was going to be laughable. If however the fowling of the tank is very close to the boiler then the steering lock chains will hopefully cure this.

I suggest Rick and Kevin try this method out and let us know the outcome. Some photos would be good to see exactly what is going on.





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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  craig@STW on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:50 am

Nick, I did get your PM first thing this morning and spoke to Steve who said he would reply (as above).

PS: we no longer have Internet in the workshop at STW so i can only view things at home Rolling Eyes

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  sonick45 on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:53 am

craig@STW wrote:Nick, I did get your PM first thing this morning and spoke to Steve who said he would reply (as above).

PS: we no longer have Internet in the workshop at STW so i can only view things at home Rolling Eyes

No worries.
thanks for passing it on.

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Pictures of steering

Post  lynnr on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 11:06 am



Last edited by lynnr on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Change location of photos)

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Belly tank clearance

Post  Steve Traill on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 1:46 pm

Hi Lynn
Looking at your photos, especially the 11th one, I can't see how the front wheel on the Road Loco could rub the belly tank even if it was 16mm closer. The clearance looks plentifull so what is different on the RL as some builders have rubbed paint off? We need a photo of the Road Loco set up to compare.

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Prototype for everything

Post  Tim Watson on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:41 pm

I have seen Burrell RLs where the boiler rubbing plates are ineffective because of the addition of rubber tyres increasing the wheel diameter and so the wheel misses the plate. Setting up the steering check chains needs to be done carefully to restrict movement.

In response to Nick's comment about RLs being most likely to be doing the pub runs, I would beg to differ. SRLs will clip along the road just as well.

Tim

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  sonick45 on Mon 18 Jul 2011, 8:32 pm

Tim Watson wrote:I have seen Burrell RLs where the boiler rubbing plates are ineffective because of the addition of rubber tyres increasing the wheel diameter and so the wheel misses the plate. Setting up the steering check chains needs to be done carefully to restrict movement.

In response to Nick's comment about RLs being most likely to be doing the pub runs, I would beg to differ. SRLs will clip along the road just as well.

Tim

Tim I will gladly retract my comment re pub runs as it was only a tongue in cheek comment referring back to an earlier thread.
Let us not start this argument again. Smile

Could it be possible that some of the RL builders have accidentally been given an SRL belly tank kit instead. This would account for the wheels rubbing on it rather than missing it given that the Road Loco’s Belly Tank is 30mm narrower. Taking into account the difference in boiler length i believe the difference would be around 16mm.

However having seen Lynnn's photos I can't see how this could be as there seems to be ample room.

Perhaps Lynn has a RL belly tank !! Wink Wink pale

We defo need some RL photos preferably from those that have reported problems just to compare.


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Belly Tank

Post  lynnr on Tue 19 Jul 2011, 12:42 am

Hi

Remote control measuring.

Front to back 300mm
side to side 715mm
Height tall side 220mm
Height low side 190mm


Can someone with a RL do the same?


Last edited by lynnr on Tue 19 Jul 2011, 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Got the measurements)

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RL belly tank measurements.

Post  sonick45 on Thu 21 Jul 2011, 12:09 pm

My tank which is for my RL.

Front to back 280mm (SRL-300mm)
side to side 715mm
Height tall side 220mm
Height low side 190mm

I think you got the right one Lynn.

Anyone with up to date kits with an RL still having issues with the wheels rubbing/catching the tank?

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  Rickster on Thu 21 Jul 2011, 2:00 pm

Now I have the cleading fitted on I'll refit the tank and steering then I will know exactly if we have a problem after setting it all up correctly with the lock chains exactly. Hopefully do this over the next few days or it will have to wait until return from holidays in August.

cheers

Rick

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

Post  sonick45 on Thu 21 Jul 2011, 2:12 pm

Rickster wrote:Now I have the cleading fitted on I'll refit the tank and steering then I will know exactly if we have a problem after setting it all up correctly with the lock chains exactly. Hopefully do this over the next few days or it will have to wait until return from holidays in August.

cheers

Rick

come on Rick... who needs sleep anyways. Very Happy

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Re: Cylinder block and cleading & Steering

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