Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

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Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Brian M on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 7:17 am

Having just bought a 4 Showman, I was thinking of the powder coat method for the main parts, such as, tender, wheels and so on as opposed to spraying with coach paint.

But unsure which way to go, any advice will be welcome!

Thanks,

Brian

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Powder or paint

Post  lynnr on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 8:05 am

Hi Brian

Welcome to the world of and addiction of STW kit building.

Unfortunately as the showman has the rear wheels vulcanized you CAN NOT powder coat them as it will destroy the vulcanization.
So unless you can get a very good colour match and also match the luster and physical properties you can not do the wheels as the same colour. A lot of people have the wheels as a contrast colour anyway. The front wheels can be done if you do them before sticking the rubbers on. If you have gone with the fronts vulcanized as I have this then precludes them as well.

I have gone with the 2K (2 pack) Imron paint system and get good results, have a look at my photo thread. Remember to get a good air feed mask as this type of paint is very toxic. The paint goes on well and as it is a catalyst based system, depending on the hardeners "speed" will be handle hard in about 4 hours and solid in 18 to 24. It also gets harder as it ages. I used it on my landrover 90 and it was basically bullet proof.

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Brian M on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 8:25 am

Thanks Lynn, front and rears are vulcanised. What about the body?

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body

Post  lynnr on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 8:30 am

Brian M wrote:Thanks Lynn, front and rears are vulcanised. What about the body?

Well a nice rub down after a hot shower. Ops sorry you meant the traction engine body.

You can powder coat everything else if you like. The only thing is hot bits may make the coating soft and if you ding it its a pain to fix.

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Brian M on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 8:33 am

Steady Shocked

Thanks for the advice

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  highpressure on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 8:47 am

Hi Brian,

Have a look for my threads also as I have had both my engines powdered coated and I am very happy with the results. Part of this decision is down to the fact that when painting you will need to clean everything generally prime first and have a large clean area for the bits to be sprayed in. The next issue is then handing and moving stuff about. I have a very good powder coaters near me who basically take everything straight after construction grease and all and then shot blast it and then colour it and give it back. They had no issues about the back wheels as they also do wet spray and made a really good job of them. I have gone for black as per "The President" which make touch up easier and I feel that perhaps it is slightly more susceptible to chipping but I also imagine that paint would also chip especially on the rims. If you choose a RAL code colour then you can generally be sure of matching it. RAL 3005 is a good wine red very close to Burrell maroon. Ultimately I choose the powder coat out of laziness and reduced grief at home. I sprayed the smoke box and chimney in the summer with heat proof paint and found it quite a challenge to make the shed suitable for spraying and I already own a compressor and gun, bear in mind that they will set you back at least 300 and you need to celan the gun after use etc. So far I have spent about 200 on all the bits coated and painted so far.

Lynn whats your total so far an paint, thinners, primer activator etc??

Cheers Kev.

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cost of paint

Post  lynnr on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 8:52 am

Hi Kev
About 120 inc VAT. Still got 1 ltr topcoat 1/2 >2/3 primer, 1ltr bright red and 4/5ltr black to use from that total.

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Brian M on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 10:05 am

Hi Kev,

The Company asked about RAL (so great advice). Can the smoke box and other 'hot' parts also be powder coated, as the powder coat can withstand 200-300 degrees?

I have estimated the price of the paint to be 500 + VAT for two showman engines (I am doing the build with my brother, Dwain (a.k.a. Flashback)).

I too considered the logistics and spraying, so 300 may be a win-win (less trouble at home) for a completed engine (just the lining to do).

I will also read your thread.

Cheers,

Brian

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  highpressure on Wed 02 Feb 2011, 10:45 am

Hi Brian,

My first engine a 4" Burrell had the smoke box and chimney coated and after two years hard work it doesnt seem to have detoriorated on the chimney and the smoke box has the lightest of surface blistering but it doesnt look any worse than a number of engines I've seen painted. When its got a degree of oil and rubbish on it it wont look so shiney. The hard work has involved some long roads runs and some pretty long hill climbs. The only thing I have found is that the powder goes soft on the door when hot and then hardens when cold glueing the door shut Sad Sad which means I have to remember to open it before it cools down too much. A bonus from the powder coat is if they are good at it they can get a full coverage on the inside of both the tender and belly tank as shown by one of the pictures in my file. It just helps to enure that the tank sealant has a second barrier to help it protect from corrosion. The technique is to heat up the component first and applying a static charge to get it inside. It worked very well.

Good luck keep posting updates

Kev.

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Brian M on Sat 05 Feb 2011, 11:56 pm

Hi Lynn/Kev,

After several days of deliberation, we have decided to go with the spray option. The power coat will be much cheaper, however, the spray will be better for the longevity and upkeep to the paintwork.

Thanks for the great advice!

Cheers,

Brian

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  bjwlancashire on Mon 07 Feb 2011, 3:16 am

Hi Brian

Looks like you have made your decision but I will throw a couple of extra comments in the mix for you and others who read this thread from my recent experiences. I am building the road loco and it will be black but not a copy of The President.

I chose to brush paint mine as I do not have anywhere to spray or any equipment, also the full size engines are done this way and I felt that a 4" scale engine would not look wrong done this way. Maybe brush marks on smaller scales might be detrimental but I am sure 4" works. However, as all four wheels are almost ready for painting I am now thinking of having them sprayed using the Craftmaster paint I have already bought. The reason being is that it may take weeks to cover every spoke with between 6 and 8 layers of primer, undercoat and top coat. affraid

I will still brush paint the tender, belly tank and cleading plus the horns and spectacle plates.

I have had some powder coating done at the front end - axle, perch and pivit bracket plus springs. However, the thickness of powdercoating has meant some work post coating as parts did not fit anymore - the coating is 0.3 to 0.4 mm thick as an industrial coating where I had it done as a favour. Biggest issue was the 10 springs as the overall hight of the springs when together was 5-5mm thcker and nothing lined up. They would not even fit betweeen the spring buckle - lesson learned. I contemplated trying to strip it off all the springs and spray paint with car paint but I am told it is very difficult to remove, even sand blasting bounces of it. I decided to remove the top leaf and go with 9 springs - it was then possible to fit the assembly over the axle and get the axle pivot pin in with some dressing of the lend pads on the lowest spring which sits on the pads on the axle. Rivet counters will shake there heads but once it is assembled into the pivot bracket, it is not noticeable.

The smokebox and chimney is also powder coated matt black after I had painted the door with the craftmaster smokebox matt black. It was difficult to get a good finish with this type of paint as it was drying so quickly. I did not like the idea of trying to paint the smokebox so it was sandblasted and powder coated inside and out and looks great. Beware powdercoating over carbody filler too, it has a reaction, there is a special filler to use if you wish to powdercoat afterwards that has metal particles in it - another lesson learned!!! Rolling Eyes

Nuts and bolts used for fixing smokebox to perchbracket have been painted using gloss black Hammerite which seems to match very well and is very durable. Ex-Mayor had it's smokebox and chimney repainted before the Onslow Park rally with this and Nigel Underwood who looks after the engine told me it is very durable. If it's good enough for Ex-Mayor, it's good enough for my bolt heads. Laughing

I hope this helps, I am not in the same league as some of the contributers in this forum, two of which have already given you great advise and the photos of there models show what a super job they are doing. However, every little bit of feedback helps.

Good luck and happy building, I look forward to meetng some of my fellow builder on the rally scene this year.

I have also managed to upload my first photograph below so hopefuly I will put some more up soon in the members photos section. Please note the chimney cowl is pushed up to allow for powder coating, it will be lowered into final position as soon as I work out the best way of keeping it there.

Brian W
[img][/img]

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  highpressure on Mon 07 Feb 2011, 4:18 am

I used 3/16 copper rivets to keep the top in place on mine. Just drill 4 holes round the top and just cut off and knock over on the inside of the chimney. It is impossible to keep the top clean let alone polished unless you dont run it at all as the heat causes the copper to discolour almost instantly, as I have found in the last two years so a patina builds up but the rivets dont look out of place at all.

Kev.

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  sonick45 on Mon 07 Feb 2011, 4:52 am

Brian,

I see you have fitted lamp arms to the front which look great.

I have the lamps but STW forgot to add the holes or provide the arms.

Did you fabricate them yourself and drill the fixing holes?

If so can you please post the dimensions etc or PM me so I can have a pair made.

I don't have the kit at home to make a pair so I will need to provide the dimension etc to someone else.

Cheers

Nick

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Flasback on Mon 07 Feb 2011, 10:27 am

This is making my head hurt...Mad but I am okay with that as Brian M will be painting the engines whilst I will be building them (in part). My wife won't let me paint at home and Brian won't let me loose in his garage with a spray gun Twisted Evil Twisted Evil I feel like I will have the best deal until the engine build gets hard. Brian W, your smoke box looks the part, we build our kit 3 over the weekend and fun was had. My bro was really kind as he let us build his smoke box first and learn from that, the door does shut with a good push. The 2nd smoke box went together better (after I hit his hand with the hammer and 30 secs later he cut his other hand with a pair of grips, oh how I we laughed).

Cheers

Dwain

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Brian M on Mon 07 Feb 2011, 1:30 pm

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the comments, nice pictures and I like the lamps.

(Flashback, I didn't laugh Sad )

All the best,

Brian M

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  bjwlancashire on Mon 07 Feb 2011, 3:59 pm

Hi Nick

I don't think they forgot, the lamps and bracket locations vary on different engines, showmans or road loco. I saw these type on a full size engine and liked the location compared to on the side of the smokebox whre some are. so designed them to suit the lamps I had bought. I put the smokebox on the perch bracket, put the axle on and a wheel and then identified how much space was needed to get the lamps on and off the bracket without interfeering with the smokebox and where the wheel could not catch them.

Below is a rough sketch I did tonight after measuriing up from my model, I did not draw it when I made them I did it in my head - once an engineer and all that. Very Happy

The bracket was bolted to the perch bracket on the centre line of the axle, holes wer marked from the bracket, drilled and tapped for M5 bolts or whatever you have to hand. I also drilled and tapped a hole so I could drill a small hole in piece whe the bracket fits in the lamp so that it can be locked in place to avoid 1) shaking off and 2) light fingers Evil or Very Mad



If it needs doing properly I can have a go another day when I have more time.
Here is a close up photo taken at an angle to show you some detail plus a straight on shot without the lamp on.



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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  bjwlancashire on Mon 07 Feb 2011, 4:14 pm

Dwain/Brian M

I think there must have been a lot of blood spilt in the workshops of this land during the building of the fortysomething showmans and road locos on the go at the moment.

A week ago my dad was grinding down the excess thread on the dummy rivets on one of the front wheels and my daugter was trying to get a photograph of this with the sparks flying. I suggested she raised the camera up high to be able to see past his shoulder - she touched him by mistake, made him jump and he ground a groove in is finger What a Face What a Face What a Face

He managed to hold back the words he was probably thinking at the time and lukily a grinding wheel tends to cauterise a wound so no blood was spilt on the wheel/bench/us etc.. Laughing He eventually saw the funny side if you can with this type of incident and has promissed that she will still get a birthday present in the summer. I think she has learned a lesson on the dangers of powertools though.

Be safe everyone!

Brian W


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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Brian M on Tue 08 Feb 2011, 1:30 pm

Hi Brian,

Did you paint your smoke door and then rub the letters with emery cloth or a go over each word with a dremel.

Cheers,

Brian

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  bjwlancashire on Tue 08 Feb 2011, 2:20 pm

Brian

I polished the beading and letters of the large name ring in the lathe using fine emery cloth around a small block of wood. The small name ring was trickier and I fitted it into the door centre piece before putting it in the chuck. For the letters in the small name ring I folded emery cloth around the end of a small piece of steel and gently touched the letters to clean the tops. I gradually reduced the grade to the finest emery I had.

I then filled the area around the letters with paint cleaning the tops of the letters of any paint once it had dried using one of those special rubbing tools with fibreglass bristles. It is relatively easy to rub away excess paint from the polished brass surface. I used 3 generous coats.

The paint I used was from Halfords and is their own brand. It is a high temperature gloss red engine enamel that can withstand temperatures of 300 degrees C.

Brian

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Smokebox ring

Post  Steve Traill on Tue 08 Feb 2011, 2:22 pm

When I painted my smokebox ring I polished up the brass first then painted the infill reasonably carefully and just wiped off any surplus with a turpsy rag as I went. With the cylinder name plate (on the SC Burrell) I sprayed that one and then as soon as I had finished, with a lint free rag, wiped the surface revealing the letters. I found painting with a brush on a smooth surface gave a poor finish and too much was going in the nooks & crannies. bounce

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Re: Powder Coat Vs Spray Paint

Post  Tim Watson on Tue 08 Feb 2011, 3:59 pm

When I originally made 'Madeline', the smokebox ring was red with brass letters. This was a pig to keep clean as the letters are very deep. I eventually nickel plated the brass and painted the background black: most agricultural TEs had steel name rings and black keeps clean!

On the SRL(S) I have thinned down the letters a bit on the lathe to reduce the relief to make them easier to clean - although the castings on the new engines are much finer than the originals- and cleaned up with various burs (professional advantage). Haven't painted them yet, but these will remain as brass with a red background.

Tim

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