Fire Box Doors

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Fire Box Doors

Post  JDA on Tue 16 Sep 2008, 5:07 am

Fire box doors.

I have found three problems with fitting the fire box doors.

1. the boiler boss for the water gauge extension B21228 is 1mm longer than the boss for the top fire door runner, and therefore, on tightening the screws, causes the runner to bend. I have spoken to Steve about this and it is OK to file down the boss to be level with the fire door boss.

2. The bottom fixing screws being countersunk in a slot are pushing the bottom runner up and tightening onto the bottom of the doors due to the slope on the screw head. I have now used cheese heads, problem solved.

3.The runners only have a recess for the doors to run in and when the doors are fully open they lose 90% of the support of the firebox front and tend to partially drop out of the running recess at the outside edge, they then tend to jam when trying to close them. I have made two shims (0.7mm steel) the shape of both runners and fitted them under the runners to form a slot for the doors to run in.

The Doors now work perfectly. I hope that some of my solutions help. Perhaps Steve could have some shims made up for retrofitting?

JDA

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  BUNGLE on Sat 20 Sep 2008, 9:50 am

THANKS FOR THE INFO JDA, WE HAVE NOT HAD CHANCE TO TRY FITTING OURS YET.

STEVE NOT REPLIED TO YOUR SUGGESTION YET, KNOW THEY ARE VERY BUSY AT MO.

AS A BY THE BY, THE SITE SEEMS TO HAVE GONE QUITE THIS WEEK, GUESS THAT MEANS ALL BUSY BUILDING !! LOL Laughing

REGARDS
BRUCE

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Re Fire Doors

Post  Big Al on Tue 23 Sep 2008, 2:39 am

Fitted mine the other day and agree with the comments.

My runners miss the boss so no problem there, but I was concerned about the doors dropping off, they were a bit tight but I kept opening and shutting them and they didn't fall off or jam at all and they did free up a bit, their opening is going to be restricted by the hornplates possibly. I will leave them and see what happens.

I have read the forum re the 4" where there appears to be a problem with them getting coked up. What are the chances of getting access to the 2 top runner screw that could be removed after each firing. Can't change them to bolts as the heads will foul so screws will have to remain. If these are kept clean they can be removed and the doors will all come away in one piece to allow cleaning of the inside of them. Not quite sure how fiddly this will be, any views?

Alan

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  BUNGLE on Tue 23 Sep 2008, 2:12 pm

JUST STARTED PLAYING WITH OUR DOORS, SO NO REAL COMMENTS ON THE ABOVE, BUT BECAUSE OF THE COKEING UP PROB ON THE 4". DID NOT WANT TO PEEN THE PINS OVER, SO THAT IN THE FUTURE IF WE NEED TOO STRIP THE PARTS TO CLEAN WE STILL CAN, BUT HATE THE STAR WASHERS, LOOK LIKE CHEAP TAIWAN TOYS. SO FOUND SOME 0.75mm STAINLESS SPLIT PINS IN THE WORKSHOP, SET THE PINS UP IN THE MILL AND DRILLED 0.8mm HOLES (VERY CAREFULLY !!!!) IN THE PINS, SO WE CAN NOW ASSEMBLE, AND DISASSEMBLE FAIRLY EASILY. I KNOW SOME PEOPLE HAVE NOT ACCESS TO THAT EQUIP. BUT IF YOU CAN, WORTH DOING.

REGARDS
BRUCE

P,S ADMIN STILL QUITE, MOST BE BUSY WITH NEXT KIT !! Laughing

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  Steam Traction World on Wed 24 Sep 2008, 11:29 am

Hi All

The problem concerning the fire doors on the 4" version is primarily caused by a steel plate ,(welded to the boiler to provide a fixing for the door assembly). The doors slide against this, so any build up muck on the inside causes the problem. Our 2" version shouldn't suffer from this because of it being mounted away from the boiler on the bronze bushes.

It would be far better to get the door to work smoothly, without having a shim as suggested by JDA. The problem with the shim is that it would create a channel for coal dust to accumulate in, which would obviously stop it working. A shim on the top would be fine and if you do still want to put one on the bottom, then I suggest it has the bear minimum sticking up,i.e. just enough to keep the doors in position and no more.

Bruces choice to fit the split pins is a good idea, we did try putting them in ourselves but found that we just broke far too many drills. As he said you need to go very careful indeed. Peening the pins over is still worth considering, afterall, the entire assembly can be removed from the boiler if any maintainence is needed.

Regards

Steve

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  Big Al on Wed 24 Sep 2008, 1:40 pm

Wish I'd read Steve's comments before I went out to garage tonight!!

When I saw Bruces comments about cheap Taiwan toys I had another look and had to agree so took them off, Peened over the ends (I take it the washers supplied with the kit are for use if you use split pins) and the whole assembly was wobbly which then caused the problems JDA noted so I made modifications like JDA.

The question of removal for cleaning is OK in relation to removing the bottom runner, I used bolts to hold the runner in and rounded off nuts to act as spacers between the nut and runner as the edges of the nuts foul the runner as you do them up. I thought that if the threads got jammed it would be easier to undo bolts than cheese head screws.

The top runner is a different matter, if you peen over the right hand door pivot this prevents access to the countersunk screw behind, or at least it will do when its all assembled. and as the top runner is key in the removal, I decided to use the taiwan toy option on this as I dont have the means to drill such a small hole accurately for a split pin.

What I will do, having read Steves comments, is to cut the lip down on my new lower guide flush in the middle section to stop the soot gathering, hopefully the remainder of the guides lips at each end will keep the doors in place and not gather too much soot.

The only other observation is that by using the guides means that there is a gap between the doors and the boiler, I hope this is not detremental to the way the fire burns, time will tell!

Good news about the fittings for the boiler kit though Laughing

Alan

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  BUNGLE on Thu 25 Sep 2008, 2:00 pm

HI GUYS JUST GOT OUR DOORS SET UP TONIGHT, ON THE BOILER (BEEN BUSY DRILLING TINY SPLIT PIN HOLES !!!), AND YES WE HAVE ALL THE PROBS THAT JDA, AND AL HAVE. GOING TO TRY FOR A GOOD BUILDING SESSION OVER THE WEEKEND, SO LOOKS LIKE WE'LL BE MAKING SHIMS FILEING BOSSES,AND MAKING TOP RUNNER CLEAR THE BOSSE FOR THE GAUGE EXTENSION !

QUESTION FOR STEVE: WOULD MODEL FIREBOX DOORS NORMALLY RUN JUST ON A LIP, RATHER THAN IN A GROOVE ??
CHEERS FOR THE ANSWER MATE

REGARDS
BRUCE

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A picture is worth ....

Post  Julia on Fri 26 Sep 2008, 3:35 am

Any chance of a picture of the doors fitted to a boiler.
Having difficulty visualising the difference between 4".

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  BUNGLE on Fri 26 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm

HI GUYS,
KINDA STRANGE JULIA SHOULD POST A REQUEST FOR A PICTURE, AS I'VE JUST BEEN STUDYING HER 4" BUILD DIARY AND I THINK I CAN SEE WHERE OUR PROBLEM LIES COMPERED WITH THE 4". I GOT THE HINT FROM WHAT STEVE SAID ABOUT THE 4" DOORS RUNNING AGAINST A PLATE. LOOKING AT JULIA'S PIC'S I CAN SEE THAT THE DOOR RUNNERS MOUNT STRAIGHT AGAINST THE PLATE, THUS FORMING A U CHANNEL FOR THE DOORS TO RUN (NO WHERE FOR THEM TO DROP INTO), AS OUR RUNNERS ARE MOUNTED AWAY FROM THE BOILER ON BOSSES, THIS LEAVES A SPACE FOR THE DOORS TO DROP INTO, HENCE SOLVED BY PUTTING THE SHIM BEHIND THE RUNNERS TO FORM A U CHANNEL.

SORRY JULIA AM NOT CLEVER ENOUGH TO POST A PIC, MAYBE ONE OF THE OTHERS CAN.

REGARDS
BRUCE

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Re Fire Box doors

Post  Big Al on Fri 26 Sep 2008, 3:05 pm

Yep, I shimmed as well but, to prevent muck getting in the U channel when shovelling in coal and potentially jamming the runners, I cut the shim down level with the runner for about the width of the opening to the firebox, still left enough runner for doors to open and close well.

Also the Tiawan toystar washer will not fit on the pivot point of the right hand door as I had hoped, as it is too big and fouls the connecting rod between the 2 doors and also the right pivot. Had no choice but to peen this over. Have found that it is now nearly impossible to get to right hand top screw to undo unless bottom runner off and door splayed wide apart, which wont be able to do when horn plates are on. Hopefully wont have to remove them as there is a space between the doors and boiler lip that might accomodate some thin scraper if need be.

I know Steve is reluctant to drill holes in all 6 pivot points, and I take his point, but if they could just do the right hand one that the star washer wont fit that would solve any removal problems.

Cheers

Alan

PS Julia - I buggered the paintwork up on the boiler (don't buy Wicks high temp paint!) so am too embarrased to put picture up at the moment till I've sorted it out. Crying or Very sad

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  BUNGLE on Sat 27 Sep 2008, 2:08 am

THANKS AL,
WE WERE GOING TO REMOVE THE CENTRE SECTION OF THE LOWER SHIM ANYWAY, AS YOU HAD MENTIONED THAT IN AN EARLIER POST.

DRILLING THE HOLES WAS WORTH DOING, BUT I CAN SEE THAT FROM A COMMERCIAL POINT OF VIEW IT COULD BE UNVIABLE. FOR AROUND 40 ENGINES (WHICH IS IN THE AREA THAT I THINK THE GUYS ARE DOING) 6 PINS PER ENGINE = 240 HOLES, THAT HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFULLY DRILLED, NOT IMPOSSIBLE BY ANY MEANS, BUT WOULD NEED JIGGING, AND PROB A GOOD PART OF A DAY TO DO, AND A GOOD SUPPLY OF DRILLS !

ALSO REMEMBER THIS KIT WAS THE LAST FROM MW, BEFORE GOING TITS UP, WHEN NO DOUBT CORNERS WERE TRYING TO BE CUT, AND MONEY SAVED, SO NOT A REFLECTION ON STW.

TRY A 'PROPER' PAINT ON THE BOILER AL, CRAFTMAN DO A RANGE OF HIGH TEMP BLACKS, ALSO REEVES DO A SMOKEBOX HIGH TEMP WHICH GOES ON NICE TOO, WORTH THE BIT EXTRA TO GET A NICE FINISH, AND ONLY HAVING DO IT ONCE !

REGARDS TO ALL
BRUCE

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  BUNGLE on Sun 28 Sep 2008, 9:56 am

HI GUYS,
YESTERDAY WE MADE THE TOP AND BOTTOM RUNNER SHIMS, WE MILLED A SMALL RELIEF IN THE TOP RUNNER WHERE THE LOWER WATER GAUGE BOSS FITS, AND REPLACED THE BOTTOM RUNNER C/S SCREWS WITH BUTTON HEADS, REFITTED IT ALL, TWEEKED A COUPLE OF LITTLE BITS AND NOW THE DOORS WORK VERY WELL Very Happy

SO THANKS TO JDA, AND BIG AL FOR THEIR TIPS.

WE THEN MOVED ON TO THE ASHPAN - SEE SEPARATE POST

REGARDS
BRUCE AND BRIAN

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Re: Fire Box Doors

Post  northburrell on Fri 06 Mar 2009, 1:20 pm

Hi guys.

I have just got round to my doors. (still putting off my rear wheels!) Without shims the doors as supplied are pretty useless.. As you might have guessed from my other posts I have cave man tools to hand! (no mill or a lathe only a trusty dremal!) so it took me a long time to do just one shim. I only fitted a bottom runner shim for now, It all works well and is very free. I also found that making my 0.5mm brass shim longer at both ends of the door travel I could bend it round the bottom runner creating a stop for doors, this will stop them opening too far and and means there is no need to make a top runner...

Also my Lilla Loco has doors like this and these run in slots like we have made by making our shims, after 3 years of running I'v never had the doors get clogged.. I think the key is getting the coal actually in the fire box and not all over footplate! that said a traction engine is allot more cramped with the fire hole being hidden under the top shaft and pump! If they do clog while in steam then a little steal cocktail stick bent 90deg at the end should sort it!! I guess we'll find out..


hope your all well.

Jo

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Re: Fire Box Doors

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