Running On Gas

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Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Thu 14 Jan 2010, 10:46 am

I've been pondering an awful thing I'm sorry to admit Sad .
I really am considering the feasibility of running mine on Butane, I've been in touch with BIX engineering regarding a ceramic burner to fit and, along with a valve for burner control dependant on steam pressure am starting to look at this as a way forwards for myself.
Any thoughts on this from anyone??

Regards

LilyJack Cool

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Thu 14 Jan 2010, 12:26 pm

HO that it you have spoiled it all now Sad ..But gas well I was thinking to run mine indoors for the first time as not to get him wet or muddy Embarassed Shocked Embarassed Shocked Mad

I do not know ??It would be intresting ..
Good luck and onwards.

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  Vapor on Fri 15 Jan 2010, 1:38 am

Go and wash your mouth out and when youv'd done that go and sit facing the corner Shocked

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  Julia on Fri 15 Jan 2010, 4:05 am

Good idea for a small engine. Would enable you to keep you pride and joy much cleaner. I was talking to a chap with a engine running on gas and the interesting feature he showed me was that the blast from the engine was not sent up the chimney. What he found was that the pulsing nature of the blast upset the gas burner. Draft was provided by a steam blower that was permanently on.

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Fri 15 Jan 2010, 1:56 pm

Vapor wrote:Go and wash your mouth out and when youv'd done that go and sit facing the corner Shocked

LOL Laughing Laughing

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Sun 17 Jan 2010, 12:08 pm

Julia wrote:Good idea for a small engine. Would enable you to keep you pride and joy much cleaner. I was talking to a chap with a engine running on gas and the interesting feature he showed me was that the blast from the engine was not sent up the chimney. What he found was that the pulsing nature of the blast upset the gas burner. Draft was provided by a steam blower that was permanently on.

Cheers for the heads up there Julia, I didn't think about the steam blast, sounds like a little extra plumbing will be required on this route doesn't it but HOPEFULLY nothing too dramatic..

Best Regards

LilyJack Cool

ps: Vapour, I'm always in the doghouse mate, my corners got a beer fridge n SKY tv hehe. The only reason I've been thinking about gas is not to keep the engine clean but to make it easier to HOPEFULLY maintain a reasonably constant pressure below the blow off point, have greater near automatic burner control, use less water and so give me more time to actually learn/operate my engine. Buttttttttt, we'll see eh Wink
Righty, beer time. drunken

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Running on gas

Post  Steve Traill on Sun 17 Jan 2010, 1:46 pm

Running your engine on gas ticks all the boxes when you have your sensible hat on! however one of the joys of running a steam engine is managing the fire and getting as much as you can from it, that will be missing from the experience. Happily there is a cure in that you can move onto a 4" Burrell!
Happy steaming
Steve

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  northburrell on Mon 18 Jan 2010, 10:13 am

interesting thought..

The Ffestiniog railway in north wales ran there Locomotives on oil for many many years... they used steam to atomise the oil as it travelled through a spiral (burner) in the middle of the firebox, there was no grate but tubes to supply air, it was then set fire to and gives a very good fire.. the oil is controlled by a valve and so it the amount of atomised steam.. as the driver opens up the reg the fireman instead of shoveling coal turns up the oil and steam to the fire making the flame bigger and producing more steam... when he shuts off the oil and steam need turning down as the fire can go out and the black smoke out the chimney stinks!... it's a very good system and helped on the double fairlie loco's were the boiler runs through the middle of the cab and there are two boilers and two firebox's to deal with.. BUT! there have been a few smokebox doors blown clean off in the past when gasses ignite in the wrong place! at the wrong time... it's also pretty scary when your clanking your way up the line needing all the steam you can get and then suddenly the fire would just go out! one second fire the next nothing! this is then followed by the driver shouting at you to get the thing ignited again.. a flaming rag pocked down the fire hole normaly sorts it out..! due to oil prices they have gone back to coal now....

http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/smcmahon/oilfiring/ofsotwng.htm

There wa also the gas producer combustion system.. still used coal but burnt the gases given off from heating the coal.. here's some info taken from http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/pg/linda/sldfr.htm

A portion of the exhaust steam is piped to the ashpan, where it mixes with the primary air. This cools the firebed below the ash fusion temperature and prevents the formation of a clinker. Additionally, it reacts chemically with the coal, producing gas which is burnt in the secondary air. The fraction of heat liberated in the combustion zone is therefore increased and so the amount of secondary air which can be admitted. The firehole door is also used to deflect air into the main combustion gas stream which is directed by an extended arch.

I'm not sure if this system has been used on models but I think it could well be doable but a hell of allot of work to get right..

once you have steamed your engine on coal few times you'll find it easy and you'll still get that nice smell!! mmmmm

Jo

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Thu 21 Jan 2010, 11:37 am

.[/quote]



LilyJack Cool

ps: Vapour, I'm always in the doghouse mate, my corners got a beer fridge n SKY tv hehe. The only reason I've been thinking about gas is not to keep the engine clean but to make it easier to HOPEFULLY maintain a reasonably constant pressure below the blow off point, have greater near automatic burner control, use less water and so give me more time to actually learn/operate my engine. Buttttttttt, we'll see eh Wink
Righty, beer time. drunken[/quote]

Hi Alan
I have given this a lot of thort ...As for me I will stay with the steam ......BUT look at it this way.
1 You have made the coin for your engine Sad Lots of work
2 You put all the hours in to makeing it Neutral some good some bad Mad
3 You got over the probs or barraors and made it Laughing Well done
4 If some one says you can not do this then just say wach me Laughing { Pretend there is a wasp on them}

Good luck and see you at some point
Hughb Big bugger

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Fri 22 Jan 2010, 10:04 am

runs after big bugger coz can see wasps Twisted Evil

Yeah mate I know what you're saying and I'm still waiting for a response from BIX for the burner but have read up some more on other sites, and I also agree with others comments on the "smell" of it all, that'll absolutely be the way forwards for me next project (that being a 4") but I'm kinda set on "having a go" with this gas milarky, if it doesn't work out for me I can always chuck me beans in it n light her up so either way, she's going to steam up Wink

Regards...

LilyJack Cool aka lanky racing snake Laughing

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Fri 22 Jan 2010, 11:38 am

Hi
Good luck with it Cool Cool Very Happy Smile

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Wed 10 Feb 2010, 7:14 am

Well so far, BIX eng have done a wonderful job in contacting me after my many requests for information (THEY HAVEN'T BOTHERED) so the venture still continues on a very open sheet of paper, am now considering buying 2 smaller burners and bastardising them into one unit with a bit of T.I.G ing or silver soldering up, am thinking that a twin jet feed via a T-piece may well assist ie : less chance of flame-outs n such. Watch this space........

LilyJack Cool

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  northburrell on Wed 10 Feb 2010, 8:31 am

Or....... some coal and shovel!!!!! Very Happy



just joking hope it works out for you mate..
keep us informed..

Jo

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  Steam Traction World on Wed 10 Feb 2010, 9:04 am

lol Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Thu 11 Feb 2010, 12:24 pm

Now that is funny Jo That has made my day Very Happy Laughing

But yes good luck

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Fri 19 Feb 2010, 6:53 am

Just thought I'd pop in an update on sourcing etc for this gas runnin stuff.
I've managed to "aquire" some information regarding scale drawings for burners to run off of Butane etc and they've successfully been used on 2 an 3" loco's so I'm gonna be gettin some brass n bits n bobs n hopefully next night shift I'm going to start making the gas manifold up and burners, these include full detail of jet sizing and rich/lean burning and rectification..
Would be nice to know what kind of BTU's the boiler requires to get up to max steam but these little beauties kick out about 8'000 at max pressure of 10psi which is a sod all level of pressure and can suitably drop down to under 1psi for idle burning so I'm thinking with a little tinkering with the steam/gas reg valve, this juuuuuuuuuuuust may be now viable.
Will keep you updated here n there as the project starts moving forwards.
Incidentally, BIX was a no no as was ceramic burners as the BTU's weren't near enough, that and they never had the decency to get back to me with any info whatsoever but patience is a virtue aint it Wink

Regards

LilyJack Cool

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Fri 19 Feb 2010, 1:25 pm

LilyJack wrote:.
Will keep you updated here n there as the project starts moving forwards.
Incidentally, BIX was a no no as was ceramic burners as the BTU's weren't near enough, that and they never had the decency to get back to me with any info whatsoever but patience is a virtue aint it Wink

Regards

LilyJack Cool

Hi LilyJack
The best thing I can think of is Maxtrax As thay do a range of engines ....But as for not getting back It is then my duty to inform them that thay lost out big time ........But that is just me .....
Good luck and do keep it comeing

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Wed 03 Mar 2010, 11:17 am

Righty,

Got myself a nice little piece of 2"x1" s/s box section for the gas manifold giving me approx 1" clearance around the firebox wall, brass hex and round both 9/16" delievered along with microdrills (try 0.65mm for jetting) Shocked , a pin chuck and a few odds n sods sooooooo I'll get some pictures up of the machining process as and when I can. The basic plumbing for this is pretty simple (which is handy cuz I'm simple too), the crappiest job's gonna be drilling the jet sizes, there'll be a total of 6 burners (still considering 2 central ones sitting slightly higher but I'm gonna wait n see how it goes during the assembly process), this will give approximately 6-8000 BTU's on Butane. This has been proven to be more than enough for both 2" and 3" copper boilers.

Regards

LilyJack Cool

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Fri 05 Mar 2010, 7:13 am

HI
OK sound good I geuss so good luck ........ Very Happy Looking forwards to the pics Shocked

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Fri 05 Mar 2010, 7:42 am

HI Alan

Is this what you will be doing with your engine Question
That is the running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZExQb3-XF30&feature=related

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Sat 06 Mar 2010, 3:10 pm












Just a few pics for anyone thats interested. Showing basic progress from the 9/16" round and hex to the burner bodies and the burner heads which have yet to be slotted out to 0.050" scratch n those gas jets were such a joy to drill out Shocked

Now at this stage, I've decided on making small locking nuts because the inside of the head needs a clearance of 0.050" to the top of the burner body once screwed on, so I can now set them and lock them off,You can also see the air port holes drilled through the body as well.
The last job for the burners themselves is to slot them which aint gonna be done today coz it's beer o'clock again (Sunday cheers )


Regards

LilyJack Cool


Last edited by LilyJack on Sun 07 Mar 2010, 8:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updating pictures and further editing requirements.)

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  chrisnchrisroberts on Sun 07 Mar 2010, 2:31 pm

I have worked on natural gas fired boilers, and in one case they had to put baffles in the furnace as the steam temperature was too hot and uncontrollable. On every boiler I operated, the furnace was squeaky clean. Even after 12months firing. Good on you for doing this, I know you will not get the burning coal smell but at least your maintenance time will be vastly reduced. Interested in seeing how you go. Steam modellers in USA are big on LPG firing. Chris

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Sun 07 Mar 2010, 3:03 pm

Where'd you think my research led me Chris Wink , the interwebs a wonderful thing, so's a really nice chap from an engineering company that gave me a name or two to check up on.. and who had the decency to ring and then email the info, the company name, the web links and all drawings I'll gladly share once I've proven the system. No point in doing so now if it's going to turn into a pig in a poke.
It's not so much to keep a nice clean engine, it's more to do with the firebox being so small it'll be (in my opinion only) a fiddly arsed job keeping a good fire going in a consistant manner, the plus side is yes it's clean, I'll save a shed load of water not having to see the exhausted steam from the cylinders going to atmosphere, I can divert that to a condensing resevoir to recycle it, the burner HOPEFULLY will be pretty much self-controlling flame wise via the atenuator valve, I can see this being a bit of a sod to set up ie: fine tune, but once it's done it's done. It's a simple case of ease of use is primarily the reason. I have a few reservations on the power they'll kick out and the quality of the flame but I'll stick in a grub screw through the jet entrance if I need to to have further gas/air mixture control, as I said, I forsee a bit of sodding about but I think it'll work out well in the long run. We'll see eh Cool

Regards

LilyJack Cool

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Re: Running On Gas

Post  LilyJack on Mon 08 Mar 2010, 8:11 am

Here's where I'm now up to, hopefully this evening on me nightshift I can start assembling into the manifold ready for testing sooner rather than later bom ...
You can now see the 0.050" slots cut into the heads, bit of a mind numbing dremmel job slotting them out but it got better as I went along haha..


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Re: Running On Gas

Post  hughb on Mon 08 Mar 2010, 10:03 am

WOW mate

You have been working a lot ..WELL DONE Very Happy Cool Laughing :Keep it up and coming

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Re: Running On Gas

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