Crimson Lake RAL code

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Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Gomer on Tue 27 Mar 2018, 4:35 pm

Hi everyone,

Looking to paint my road loco in Crimson Lake but want to use 2K paint. Does anyone know the RAL code and whats the best colour undercoat to use?

Thanks in advance,

Gomer

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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Simon C on Tue 27 Mar 2018, 9:17 pm

Gomer wrote:Hi everyone,

Looking to paint my road loco in Crimson Lake but want to use 2K paint. Does anyone know the RAL code and whats the best colour undercoat to use?

Thanks in advance,

Gomer

The nearest Ral codes to Crimson Lake are 3002,3003,3004 and 3005 you will need to look at your pains suppliers colour cards in daylight and judge this one for yourself.
The paint supplier that I use is always helpful with advice as to primers and under coat requirements.

as for heat resistant paint for the smoke box,chimney etc I use "Calfire Stove bright" in satin black from www.gratefireplaceaccessories.co.uk its also available in other colours from these people if you want something a little different.

Hope this helps
Simon C (a full roofer)
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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Adam Brown on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 9:13 am

There is no RAL code for Crimson Lake. It is a historic colour so it is just formulated to be what it is.

The closest RAL is 3005 which is a mile off. Neither the British Standard nor RAL range have a particularly good selection of Dark Reds

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Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Gomer on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 2:00 pm

Many thanks for your advice. I'll get hold of my paint supplier and see if he can mix something to match then.

Regards,

Gomer

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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Steve Traill on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 3:49 pm

By 2K I guess you mean two-pack paint, it's very good for lasting but it doesn't age, it always looks brand new and with the Craftmaster paints they develop a nice patina over the years which two pack paint doesn't give you.

At the end of the day though, yer pays yer money and makes yer choice!
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Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Gomer on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 4:05 pm

Hi Steve,

Do you spray or brush the Craftmaster paint? The only thing that has pushed me towards two pack is the cold weather. I have quite a few components wanting paint on them now but its still too cold for spraying enamel paint. You've got me thinking now as i would like the engine to look "of an age" and perhaps modern paint isn't the way forward.
Thanks for your input.

Gomer

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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Steve Traill on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 5:24 pm

I sprayed it, I would thin the paint up to about 5% & use a HVLP gun at about 22psi. I used an old caravan as a spray shop so I could paint all year round. A fan heater would get the temperature up to 30 degrees in half an hour which then makes the paint touch dry in 30 minutes. The quicker it sets off the less chance of dust landing on it. I fitted an 8" extractor where the old gas fire had left a hole in the wall and fitted a large lorry air filter to the roof vent. Everything else was sealed up tight so when the extractor was on only filtered air would come in.
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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Simon C on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 7:54 pm

Adam Brown wrote:There is no RAL code for Crimson Lake. It is a historic colour so it is just formulated to be what it is.

The closest RAL is 3005 which is a mile off. Neither the British Standard nor RAL range have a particularly good selection of Dark Reds

Hi Adam, Gomer and Steve.

Adam If what you say about crimson lake "it is what it is" is correct then what can you base an opinion of the colour upon?
As Burrell & Sons closed On 4 June 1928 then non of that original colour paintwork can be left can it?
Any engines seen today painted in a version of Crimson Lake must be painted in an interpretation of this colour as it was back in 1928.

Now as to the spray / brush Question I suspect that the original engines would have been painted using coach paints applied with a brush, Ok painted by craftsman who would have been good at the job but would the finish have been as good as a modern spray job?

Steve mentioned that 2K doesn't age like other paint, if this is to be a consideration then surely a finish that is just too perfect must also be a consideration.

Gomer if its of any help in deciding on the above I used a time tested theory of its my engine so i will paint it how and what colour pleases me the best.

Simon C (a full roofer)
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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Steve Traill on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 9:06 pm

Spray or brush finish? Spraying gives a nice smooth finish but at Rallies when people ask you was it sprayed or brushed there's always that look as though you cheated when you say it was sprayed! One way round it if you want a good (scale) brush finish is to spray all of it then brush the final coat of lacquer to give the slight lining of a brush finish. Whether you admit to how you did it it up to you!!
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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Simon C on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 9:36 pm

Steve Traill wrote:Spray or brush finish?  Spraying gives a nice smooth finish but at Rallies when people ask you was it sprayed or brushed there's always that look as though you cheated when you say it was sprayed!  One way round it if you want a good (scale) brush finish is to spray all of it then brush the final coat of lacquer to give the slight lining of a brush finish.  Whether you admit to how you did it it up to you!!

Good answer Steve, I have used a combination of three methods Brush, Spray & Powder Coat. so I am thinking that however the question is asked I can just say "YES"
Simon
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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  sonick45 on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 3:45 pm

I kind of disagree with spraying giving you a smooth finish. It gives you the finish of a car which if you look at it up close is far from smooth compared to brushing that is. Look at reflections in your car paint on a sunny day.  

Spraying is the best for those in a hurry or where time = money but if you have the time I recommend brushing for the best and long lasting finish.

I currently have two engines side by side. One is sprayed the other brushed. Having not had this advantage before you can really see the difference.  Spraying applies a very thin coat of paint and this is evident around areas that get constant touch and rub.  The paint in these areas is starting to show through to the undercoat.

The brush painted engine has a much thinker coat of paint and the areas of touch and rub are showing signs of small abrasive scratches but so signs of undercoat.  A quick polish with carnauba wax and the scratches disappear.

There is a caveat to brush painting which is it takes much longer and requires ooodles of patience.
Once you have reached your final top coat the last cut back is most important and if you finish this to 1000 grit or more your varnish coat will produce a very smooth mirror glaze.

I wouldn't know where to start with a spray gun and don't have the isolated area required for dust free painting.  You dont need to be dust free for brush painting as you cut back each layer to a flat finish removing any dust particles in the process.
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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Steve Traill on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 6:34 pm

The other advantage of brushing is that one gets lots of paint in the joints and around the base of rivet heads. With spraying these areas can get missed or receive a thin coat. At the end of the day it's up to the owner how they paint their engine.
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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  sonick45 on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 7:50 pm

I totally agree on it been the owners choice. Its nice however to read this forum and see constructive comments from both sides allowing readers to make a more informed decision on the different build.processes.
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Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Gomer on Thu 05 Apr 2018, 3:44 pm

Thanks for all the useful advice. I'll take the suck and see approach and try spraying first.
I think i'm going to paint a bit of plate first using a brush with the Craftmaster paints and then try and match the colour the best i can.

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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Adam Brown on Fri 06 Apr 2018, 4:15 pm

Simon C wrote:
Adam If what you say about crimson lake "it is what it is" is correct then what can you base an opinion of the colour upon?
As Burrell & Sons closed On 4 June 1928 then non of that original colour paintwork can be left can it?
Any engines seen today painted in a version of Crimson Lake must be painted in an interpretation of this colour as it was back in 1928.

Original paintwork that is visible is not really suitable for colour matching, and for things like Traction Engines there are no colour charts from the era (though I do have some mid 20's car ones).

The knowledge of Traction Engine colours that we have has been built up over many years. The RLS have their own store of information and we don't always agree, for example some formulations survive saying 30% Red Oxide, 20% Blue, 50% Crimson - well what are the base components of each of the listed colours? We won't work to any formulas for this reason.

We work largely with Tomo whom is a well known and highly respected engine painter. Most of our colours have come from him and in the particular example of Crimson Lake the sample was found underneath a bracket on the engine that hadn't been removed since the day it was made, so we are fairly confident in Crimson Lake (and it is sort of our 'signature colour'). Tomo worked a match out on site using pigments and sent it to us to have matched in the colour lab at Manchester. One or two do conform to British Standards, and one Wallis colour happens to be a dead match to RAL but these are the exception not the rule. Colours are picked up from time to time as evidence emerges.

You can't always listen to what the manufacturers say either. Lots of early preservationists wrote to Aveling Barford for the correct colours for Aveling & Porter Roller. They picked a British Standard that looked alright and specified that. The reality is there were at least two colours (Pre 1921 and Post 1921) with a degree of probability that there was a very early one as well.

A point often made by Richard Wilcox (RLS Liveries Officer since 195something) is that if the lining is right the exact shade of colour doesn't matter too much. I'd agree with that as the lining is what brings an engine to life.

A final note that is worth considering - nothing is 100% correct. Very very few manufacturers bought paint in ready made to their specifications, they mixed it themselves and there would have been variations from batch to batch. (It has been worked out that your could probably get 7 slightly different shades on an engine and never notice - very few surfaces touch each other). Even those that did buy it in wouldn't send it back for minor imperfections.

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Re: Crimson Lake RAL code

Post  Simon C on Fri 06 Apr 2018, 4:39 pm

Thanks Adam
That is a nice insight in to how these colours are recreated.
I suppose that it still all comes down to "its my engine and I like the colour so I am going to paint it with that colour.

Simon C
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